Discussion: Input needed on Rogaine name change in USA

Back in December, the OUSA Rogaine committee voted (5-3) to start a process to change the name of Rogaining here in the USA. The main reason behind the change is to avoid the conflict with the hair care medicine of the same name and to provide a more marketable name for the sport (or format within the sport of orienteering) so that we can achieve more growth.

The committee brought the issue up to the International Rogaining Federation and they actually considered the idea of changing the name internationally but the majority of member countries do not have the same name conflict that we do in the USA. Consequently, the IRF decided that it would not change the name internationally but that it was OK to change the name in the USA. In fact, several prominent members of the IRF were actually very encouraging. We would however, have to retain the name when hosting a World Rogaining Championships (which is currently being considered for 2020).

Back in 2012, there was a lengthy discussion on Attackpoint for a potential name change:
http://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/me...
This discussion did not reach the OUSA Rogaine Committee back in 2012 but a number of members of the committee have independently decided that now is the time to take action on this issue. A number of good ideas were suggested in the past discussion but we would like to see if there is any new input. Our leading contender right now for the name change is Map Trek (or Map Trekking depending on usage). Map Trek is the name currently being used by Nav-X Map Adventures, a new OUSA member club dedicated to producing exclusively Map Trek events. However, the committee would like to consider a broader range of other name suggestions.

Some will wonder how this name change will be implemented. The idea is that there would be a period of time during which we use the old name together with the new one to allow people to make the connection. Also, the OUSA committee does not want to tell event organizers what to call their events. Events could continue to use Rogaine/Rogaining in the future if they wanted to.

Bill & Heidi Cusworth
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
OUSA Rogaine Committee members
Members of Nav-X and GCO
IRF Council Rep (Heidi)

Round here the name "rogaine" is cool. Would be good to change "orienteering" though...

I like the definition of Rogainist given in Urban Dictionary

"Map Trek", like "map hike" at the other end of the spectrum. Sounds better than my first idea: endurance orienteering (endure-O)

I like endure-O

Also, the OUSA committee does not want to tell event organizers what to call their events.

You mean like rogaining?

[clicks link from 2012]

[reads]

[ctrl-c, ctrl-v]

Really, what we need is a legitimate branding consultant. We're so far inside the loop that we don't know what's best for those outside the loop.

====

I follow the branding industry daily, so I know a little about this. But I'm not industry-trained, obviously, so I'm not an expert. I want to respond to this first:

The idea is that there would be a period of time during which we use the old name together with the new one to allow people to make the connection.

Don't do this. Just rip it off like a band-aid. There are times when rebranding gradually makes some sense, but I just don't see the benefit for the rogaining in the US. It's not like there are trucks, planes, signage and other expensive concerns. The market in the US is tiny, and the current infrastructure is tiny. People are smart and will figure it out.


Ok, so rebranding. Just asking a forum for ideas isn't the best solution. Before we start spouting off a bunch of names, I think all of the stakeholders here should ask and answer some questions:

-- Why are you rebranding?

-- What problem(s) are you trying to solve? Is your brand out-of-date, out-of-touch, or stuck in a rut?

-- What are your products? How have they changed?

-- Who are your customers (past, present, future)? How have they and their needs changed?

-- Who are your competitors (for business)? How have they and their needs changed?

-- What would your brand look like if you were starting from scratch today?

-- Do you want an evolution or a revolution?

-- What does your brand mean? What do you want it to mean? Why should people care?

Pinksocks has some great ideas. Rogaining needs a marketing plan of how rebranding will lead to growth in the sport, and an idea of how that new brand can be promoted (not to mention money to fund said promotion). Any idea that simply changing the name will by itself increase the level of interest and participation is pure fantasy.

When was the last time you heard that particular hair restorer product advertised? The name conflict is such old news that its starting to smell like a corpse. Among the type of people to whom rogaine (the sport) would appeal, name recognition is probably now as high for the sport as for the hair product.

I'd want to have a very high degree of certainty that a name change will actually do some good before I'd even think about rebranding. I bet all of us can think of poorly conceived rebranding of products or organizations that have at best had no positive impact and at worst have annoyed or turned off at least some existing supporters.

When was the last time you heard that particular hair restorer product advertised? The name conflict is such old news that its starting to smell like a corpse. Among the type of people to whom rogaine (the sport) would appeal, name recognition is probably now as high for the sport as for the hair product.

Sorry, 13 years of US Google searches would suggest otherwise. "Rogaining" is way, way, down there, and "Rogaine" and "Minoxidil" have exactly the same trend lines that would indicate that Rogaine is synonymous with the hair medication, and not the sport.

Both Pink Socks and mikeminium have some very good points. Like Pink Socks, I have interest and some knowledge of branding and promotion but am not an expert. Rebranding isn't something to be taken lightly and isn't something that is useful without the promotional mechanisms to make the brand known. A better brand known by the same number of people is only going to attract those same people to the events.

If this is something you're going to put effort into, it's worth doing it right. Find an expert that can work with you to create a brand that is going to help achieve your foals (Pink Socks questions are great!). At the same time, make sure to come up with a plan to actually follow through and make use of the new brand.

In the mean time, if you don't have the resources to do all that it might be more worth spending resources figuring out how to expand the capacity of the community to host more and better events.

Sorry for the negativity - I hope the feedback is useful food thought if nothing else.

To date, have there been any complaints from the owner of the hair restoration product about the use of the term for the sport? If not, is that due to its longstanding use? Would that change if the term disappeared from general use for the sport in America, and then ten or twenty years later America held a World Rogaining Championships, a name that Bill indicates that IRF will insist on? Just curious.

World Minoxidiling Championships? :)

This discussion always fascinates me, because in Australia the minoxidil-containing hair restorer product is called Regaine, so I wonder why that's not the case in the USA - was that name already trademarked for something else?

As I'm sure I contributed to the previous discussion, ROd, GAil & NEil Phillips gaven their name to the sport in Aust, and Neil was the first (self-appointed?) president of the IRF, so I doubt the international name will be changing any time soon unless IOF tries to take over rogaining again.

The Food and Drug Administration believed that the name Regaine promised too much (false advertising). So, the company changed it to Rogaine for America only.

World Phillipsing Championship? ;-)

There's been a bit of renaming in American orienteering over the last decade. National Event rather than A Meet, Orienteering USA rather than United States Orienteering Federation. It would be interesting to assess what the effects have been, in considering another map sport name change.

Nav24

100% of the people I have mentioned Rogaining too have thought hair product immediately and laughed. Maybe it's just 90s kids who got hit hard with tv commercials or maybe we spent too much time mocking the product and now it's stuck in our heads lol That said my dad giggles every time...

Like the Nav24. Anything but Rogaine.

It may be a fine name everywhere else, but in the USA, the fact that it's also the name of a well-known hair restorer makes it a terrible choice. That's the purpose of "rebranding".

Among the type of people to whom rogaine (the sport) would appeal, name recognition is probably now as high for the sport as for the hair product.

Not a chance. There are thousands of people in this country who know about the navigation sport. There are probably close to 100 million who know about the hair restorer. I would expect that some noticeable fraction of those 100 million would be interested in a 24-hour orienteering race.

I like endure-O

Anything that uses "O" in the name is going to baffle a lot of people.

Nav24

Using "24" in the name really gets to the point, and I think that's important.

Side note: This weekend's edition of the NPR radio quiz show "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me!" included the word "orienteering".

If the hair product is not known enougn you can always develope something from "Via controls racing/routing adventure".

This weekend's edition of the NPR radio quiz show "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me!" included the word "orienteering".

We've made it to the status of esoteric trivia? Did the contestant get the answer?

When I tell people I do rogaining, they ask if it's anything like orienteering.

When I tell people I do orienteering, they ask if it's anything like rogaining.

Nav24.

If you were to invent the sport from scratch, would you ever (pardon Australia) call it rogaining?

If you were to reinvent any sport from scratch, would it still end up with the same name? Under the "Nav24" principle, you'd end up with the following likely names for well known sports:
-Tennis: hitballbackandforth
-Gridiron: machoguysrunningintoeachother
-Basketball: callendlesstimeoutswhentherearejustsecondslefttoplay
-Ice hockey: crashandbashonskates
-Soccer/football: borethecrowdwithyourimpressiveballhandlingskillsbutnotactuallydoanything

Well orientering (the original name) is Swedish for 'orientation: the ability to find one's way or to know precisely where one is located' (Wiktionary). If there was a Swedish word for knowing roughly where one is located then perhaps it could be used instead of rogaining.

I imagine rogaine (the product) could become more popular in the rust bucket states, and less popular in the main orienteering centres of the US given that Trump obviously uses litres of the stuff.

I plan to attend several six hour Nav24s this year.

I was under the impression that rogaining developed from the Melbourne Uni Mountaineering Club 24 hour walk. So the name has changed at least once already.

Was that before or after Alex Tarr and Tim Dent sent shockwaves through the community in the mid-1970s by actually running and cleaned up the course at a 12-hour in about half the allocated time?

Must have been after. There never was an MUMC 12 hour walk to my knowledge.

Were there ever any mountains in Australia? They were good at branding, those students.

Mt Gungin in WA is 400m above sea level.

Did the contestant get the answer?

It had to do with a question for a panelist, where they generally give enough hints that the answer is arrived at, in this case by Tom Beaudette. But the word "orienteering" wasn't in the question, it came up in the explanation of the answer.

I'm guessing that Nav24 implies Nav12 and perhaps even Nav6 as well. Does one go as far as Nav4, Nav2 or Nav1? Or Nav18 or Nav36 for that matter (toward the Adventure Racing formats)?

Google gives hits for Polish business software, an interrogation of a Japanese military officer regarding their WW2 Aleutians campaign, and a SoundCloud channel when searching for Nav24. Also a Spanish hotel in a restored military building.

@tRicky, gruver
NZ mountains were closer than Mt Gungin. So they went to NZ. Mostly they came back as well. It should also be noted that Christchurch rock climbers generally came to Melbourne and thence to Arapiles/the Grampians once they had realised that the rock on Port Hills was horrible and that Taupo was all much the same after a while. I knew a few who lived at Arapiles for months on end. Some eventually realised that they could also sample 300 metre granite walls at Buffalo Gorge without the weather of the Darrens. Most mountaineers I know spend more time rock climbing than in the mountains due to the logistics of middle age. So I suppose the MUMC dudes had the best location after all.

My take:

The word Rogaine does not fit the sport, so it is time to begin the process of changing it. It is important to realize that any name change will cause confusion for a period of time. So patience will be needed. This is especially true when the rest of the world is not going along with the change. A new catchy name will not bring immediate popularity to the sport, however, it may give the sport a better opportunity to grow in the coming years.

Rogaine 2.0

I think "Raid" sounds cool in english and apparently it does in french as well. As in "Raid Galouses" or "Snowshoe Raid" or "Black Hills Raid".

map trek and nav race variants are already in frequent use in the US, seems like a good idea to get some choices and have a suggested pick that has wider appeal to the US partcipants.

This is sounding very reminiscent of the choosing of the US orienteering uniform a few years ago. Or the mooted change to NZ flag where some beautiful suggestions... came to nought.

From an outsider point of view - I am confused as to why you'd put a number in a title when there are many other options. Nav 24 I assume means 24 hr and there are many other times. (Different in sailing when the numbers mean something).

Trek to a newcomer/non-diehard implies a long arduous experience, not enticing at all. It also pulls in the pace counting/bearing/ head down bum up uninviting experience.

Navsport has been proposed occasionally and it gives a clue to the activity involved. If the Raid idea gets a nod I'd suggest navRaid - keeps the navigation linkage.

Half Ironman is now called 70.3 Dont know how that is going at catching on

Raid is a word already taken and used to describe in France something that is similar to what Adventure Racing is here in the U.S.

Nav24 sounds like an event name, not a sport name. But what do I know? This thread is probably not going to lead to anything productive beyond the suggestions that the committee find a professional with expertise in branding to go find out what's best.

Why don't we just call it what it is: Painathlost. A looong painful time on your feet and then you get lost. :)

Isn't Raid also used in the US? We use it to kill flies so using it to kill floppy hat wearing bearded walkers seems apt.

24 hour = Marathon Orienteering, 12 hour = Half Marathon O, 6 hour 1/4 marathon O, less than 6 hours is just a Long O, more than 24 hours Ultra Marathon O.

Of course this means maps in Australia and the US would have to be upgraded to the same standards used for rogaines in Europe.

There's been a notable absence of the word Running in the suggested names so far, for both Rogaining and Orienteering. Why is that?

Running says:
this isn't a niche sport anymore
this is a competitive, athletic sport
this is a race, not an event, not a navigation exercise
this is something that runners can excel in, and should consider trying

Those all seem like good things to associate with the sport if it is trying to grow and become more mainstream.

Some suggested names:
Off-Trail Running
Bush Running (pays homage to Oz, implies Bushwhacking)
Nav Running
Extreme Trail Running / XTR
Pajama Running
Overland Running
Checkpoint Running / CPR

Some catchy catch-phrases:
"Trail running, without the trail"
"Navigation on the Run"

tRicky, i gotta use images.Google more often, as you are correct about Raid

... and in France, looks like they too have a branding issue, as that word is more known to be the acronym for the equivalent of a U.S. SWAT force

There's been a notable absence of the word Running in the suggested names so far for Rogaining. Why is that?

I don't run for 24 hours

DanFoster

That would be a good way to kill the sport in Australia, where on the west side of the country, we have the most social (and best attended) participation rates in the country, or at least we did until they did something stupid last year that killed off entry numbers. It is very uncommon for more than about 10% of teams to do any running in events in W Aust so implying it is a running based sport would have a negative impact. Pure runners (as I've discovered with pure mountain bikers) don't want to be held back by having to read some dumb map whilst they're trying to kill the competition. It's all about speed, not having to think.

Good points. I was making the assumption, perhaps incorrectly, that most Rogaining starts were in events lasting 8 hrs or less, where the top finishers would be running or jogging for good portions of the race.

Even in shorter events, the vast majority of the participants do little to no running. It's really a hiking competition.

TeamNav? (Of course, FloppyHat does capture the dusty, wandering character, cueing on tRicky's comment.)

Another line of thought when considering names:
What's the highlight of the experience for a beginner? What are they going to take a photo of? They aren't going to win. They aren't going to clear the course. They aren't going to brag to their friends about keeping contact with the map, or making perfect route choices.

They're going to struggle up some greenbriar-filled reentrant for a while, and just when they're about to give up on the sport, they're going to spot an orange-and-white flag. That's the experience to focus on.

It's "Capture the Flags", or "Flag Racing", or "Checkpoint Pokemon: Gotta punch them all"

TeamNav is succinct (same number of syllables) and gives an idea of what a Rogaine is, though it might be confusing when shorter versions allow solos.

How about Geo running or Geo racing?
But based on what I hear in the woods when there are lots of teams of adventure racers around Rogaine should be called "Over here!" from what is yelled when a haphazardly placed CP, marked on an indifferent map is located.

One could call the solo version SoloNav. It's a different experience, so why not a different name. The team aspect of RoGaiNe is pretty central, nearly as much so as the navigational aspect.

One could try to capture the feel of the event in the name of the event, not just in the name of the format. So, an event emphasizing social hiking could be Dusty Pardners TeamNav, Rolling Ramble TeamNav or Happy Hollow TeamNav, while one a bit sportier could be Mountain Challenge TeamNav, Hard Racing TeamNav or Rocky Extreme TeamNav.

Of course, TeamNav or Team NAV has some hits on Google, including what appears to be a band. I'm not sure how feasible it will be to find a term that has no hits on Google already, but maybe finding one with hits for only a few, unrelated, uncommon topics would suffice.

Are there known side-effects of doing Rogaining?

Lengthy discussions about what to call it?

Given the flatness of our local terrain, Follow Your Compass (or alternatively Stay On Bearing for the more experienced, terminology capable rogainer) would be an apt descriptor.

I doubt that would catch on across the Tasman.

Is some sort of poll worthwhile, perhaps ranking the suggestions? Could also ask questions like how often one rogaines, whether one runs or hikes, and so forth, and see how they correlate with the preferred term.

I don't run for 24 hours

Neither do ultra runners and they don't let it bother them

Do power walkers ever run?

tRicky you should ask the Melbourne Street-O people.

While you're at it, ask them about branding. Maybe its that intriguing "O" in the name..

the OUSA committee has a $50 annual budget (IRF capitation levy), so getting a branding expert is unlikely. Not a snappy name, but Competition Hiking pretty much describes what is happening in most events. It lacks the nav aspect, but it's an immediate match to the interest/activity of a really large number of prospective participants who have no idea that this sport even exists but are out there doing a similar activity as their recreational choice already.

Sadly the "Not everyone runs so you can't refer to our sport as running" comment/issue is probably why we ended up with Foot-O which is almost as bad as Rogaine and worse than O on its own which is, of course, also a terrible name.

Linking with running has certainly helped my club's growth.

Apparently, "Rogaine" would have been fine except for the conflict with the hair product, even though to the uninitiated "Rogaine" means absolutely nothing and tells you nothing about the nature of the sport. So, for a new name, why not pick a catchy word that also means nothing. Some of the best know brands are nonsense words but that didn't keep them from becoming popular - because they had a great product to offer. Think Xerox, Kodak, Kleenex.

NavCross. Combines navigation with cross-country travel. Cross is cool and athletic - see CrossFit, cyclocross, cross-training. It's generic enough to describe all orienteering-style disciplines, not just rogaining. Ski-O = NavCross Ski Race, etc. Cross implies cross-country travel, but doesn't restrict you to specifics like "trail running" or "forest trekking".

Any idea what Orienteering Canada's name of choice?

Dan, if you want to make it really cool and appeal to the younger generation you'd call it NavX.

+1 NavCross

Agree, NavCross is good.
How about NavTrek?
Add a 6, 12, 24 suffix to either one.

NavX - tRicky +1!

And then when it's called NavX there will be the inaugural Rogaine Trophy presented.

Whatever is decided, lets get the trademark registered so Big Pharma doesn't steal it again.

Too late NavX already trademarked

LostX?

LateX

LOST but not InvisibleX

OUSA needs to be careful here. Some of the names that people have come up with (eg Nav-Cross, anything with Nav, Geo, or Map in the title), you would really need to use for both orienteering and rogaining, otherwise the existing confusion in the public mind between the two disciplines will remain, get worse even. Since both disciplines are managed by ORIENTEERING USA, then both disciplines should have the word orienteering. See my previous post (Feb 20).

Something different like Raid might work, but there would be a lot of hard marketing work to establish it. Orienteering is already known as a recognisable brand for a navigation/running sport, so why not build on that and have the two disciplines complement each other?

XNav.

FutilityX

Personally, I like NavCross, or Navicross (which rolls off the tongue better) over the X variants, because it's not clear what the X signifies in the name of the sport.

But if there's momentum toward NavX, Nav-X, or NavEx, there are some great top-to-bottom branding opportunities around the "ex" sound.

Expedition, XPD, Nav-Xpedition: ultra-long endurance event. rogaine or goat.
Extraction, Escape: remote-start event, find your way back to civilization.
Explore, Explore-O: choose-your-own-route, score-O
Express: sprint, short event or course.
XL: longer event or course
Expert: advanced-level orienteerer or course
Explorer: beginner or intermediate orienteerer or course
The X Factor: why experienced orienteerers keep beating faster runners
The NavEx Experience: about the sport, your first race, FAQ
Exercise, Exploration: benefits of the sport

Orienteering is already known as a recognisable brand for a navigation/running sport

By whom? If you wander down to your town's Thursday night running group, how many of them think orienteering is anything other than staring at your feet and walking around a field? I suppose if rogaines are only hoping to recruit from the population of existing orienteers, there you go. How big is that group?

Some good suggestions so far. Some of them would make good race names and I think you would want to let race organizers call their races whatever they want. Some will want to keep rogaine. But Mr. Wonderful brings up a good point about recruitment

So stepping back...what if you were to start all over again what would you call a sport that involves navigation, maps and adventure?

We already have Orienteering (O), Rogaine (R), and Adventure Racing (AR). Then there are the variants on those such as mountain marathon, raid, adventure running, etc.

Are these sports really that different? I'd say the differences are small when you consider what the FIS (international federation for skiing) presides over with skiing - alpine skiing, nordic combined, ski jumping, cross country skiing, and freestyle skiing. Heck even cross country skiing alone has huge variety with classic, skate, sprint, mass start, skiathlon, telemark, pursuit, backcountry, etc.

There are a lot of similarities in AR, O and R. They are all endurance sports, adventure sports, and navigation sports. As a person that has raced in all three of these sports over the years with decent success I find it unfortunate that some (influential?) athletes and officials in all three sports hold petty (and often unfounded) disagreements over the other. And in some cases the disagreements appear in the form of an unfortunate superiority complex.

With that said, as an athlete that started in O, I have to admit to a bias and see these collective sports through an orienteering lens. That is, I view R as an ultra team-based version of O and I view AR as a team and multi-sport version of O. The team aspect was an important component that O was missing. But as Mr. Wonderful points out, O is also a bad name on its own and its various forms (Foot-O? really). It doesn't help that orienteering federations, associations and IOF didn't have (and still don't?) the innovation or flexibility (or was it arrogance?) to innovate to change.

In fact, it is possible (and likely) that the reason that mountain marathon, park world tour sprint O, rogaine, raids and AR all emerged was from the lack of flexibility that a strict rules set within O was based.

So this thread has renewed my interest (in a North American context) to see a "collective" AR, O and R marketing and promotion reboot. An "umbrella name" and cooperation among race organizers and associations and federations to develop AR, R, and the different sport versions of O (incl. ski, MTB, canoe, night, score, etc.).

Instead of arguments about the differences I am hopeful that we can work together and PROMOTE THE DIFFERENCES as a way to get more people to do navigation, adventure and endurance races.

For example, some people prefer longer races. Some prefer short and fast. Urban vs wilderness. Single sport vs multi-sport. point-to-point vs choice. time trial vs time limit. solo vs teams. teams of 2 or 3 or 4. Maps that are 1:4K or 5K or 10K or 25K or 50K. 6 minutes vs 6 hours vs 6 days.

Would a collective name and branding reboot make the three 'separate" fringe sports gain visibility and help it grow? I would hope that it could because the end-game really should be about getting more people out with a map and finding controls/checkpoints.

With that said I believe the key names that have been mentioned so far in this thread are navigation, sports, racing, map, adventure (and running if just referring to O and R).

Adventure Navigation Sports?
Adventure Navigation Racing?
Endurance Map Sports?

Many schools have cross-country running teams
Cross-Country Navigation XC-nav
Cross-Country map sport mapXC

How about we name it after the inventors of the sport? Maybe take the first couple letters for their first names: Rod Phillips, Gail Davis and Neil Phillips.

That would give us something like RoGaiNe... Oh, nevermind.

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with the current name.

@Hammer: Well said!

USOF -> OUSA -> NavSport America? :-)

But seriously, good points Hammer.

ULTRANav (Unbelievably Long Technical Running And Navigation)

[@Hammer]: and the different sport versions of O (incl. ski, MTB, canoe, night, score, etc.).

you forgot Hash-O, map-based quest to find beer in the woods

I personally describe AR, Rogaining, and orienteering to the 'uninitiated' as "Navigation Racing". I think it gets the point across rather concisely.

Personally, when I say Orienteering to a complete newbie, I immediately follow it up description as a scavenger hunt thru nature sometimes off trail and then into different distances and difficulties, leading to Rogaine being longer and ARs involving different disciplines usually MTB/Canoe. Haven't really had any issues with confusion after that explanation. I concede it can be a lengthy learning curve. So to me it's not really necessary, but I wouldn't complain about a rebrand either.

I did like the suggestion above about Marathon distances and I could see a parallel to Triathlons should AR's / Orienteering ever become an Olympic sport, Sprint, Olympic, Half/Full Iron Man (but something different than Iron Man). If we draw off examples from the Olympics where there are multiple events within similar disciplines, I think there is plenty of room to find ideas to bring everything together into a nice package somehow.

"Non-ferrous man", to avoid any compass interference.

Coming in a bit late, but I've long had the view expressed by Hammer. "I find it unfortunate that some (influential?) athletes and officials in all three sports hold petty (and often unfounded) disagreements over the other."

Around here, rogaining was introduced by orienteering clubs, and my club gets 50% of its participation from (short, near-urban, bare-bones) rogaines. It was a source of disappointment that rogaine specialists formed a separate organisation. For a tiny sport. In a tiny country.

Personally, I like NavCross, or Navicross (which rolls off the tongue better) over the X variants, because it's not clear what the X signifies in the name of the sport.

Bingo. I threw in the NavX moniker just for that reason. It took me ages before I figured out that the X in these sports was pronounced Cross, not Ex.

By whom? If you wander down to your town's Thursday night running group, how many of them think orienteering is anything other than staring at your feet and walking around a field?

Doesn't matter what new name you call it, you're still going to have to describe what it is to anyone outside the sport. Changing the name will not make it recognisable unless you call it something like Map Reading on the Run.

tRicky - now you are messing with my mind. All the 'X's I've come across relate to Extreme Games etc. so that was what I thought we were discussing.
To all the others who would *like* to amalgamate AR,O and Rog - good luck with that. It makes sense as they are variations on a central sporting endeavour but bringing them all under the one umbrella would be impossible and then to allocate a suitable name even more impossible (yes I know Tooms!!! if you are reading this).
There is much more synergy between O and Rog and some possibility of linking there. AR is pretty much totally commercial. But many participants in all 3 (viz tRicky, NSW Stinger et al).
Why the push to change? Because Rogaine needs explaining? Then explain - get the conversation going. Contemplate this. If I said I was an "athlete" - that doesn't tell you I am a runner or a javelin thrower or a steeple chaser. The sport is known as Athletics but there are many parts to its total identity.

tt, the one I was thinking of was the Raid X Adventure (pronounced Cross Adventure). When it was held in Albany, the mayor did a spiel referring to it as 'Ex Adventure', which brought many sniggers from the audience. I thought that was a little harsh because even I'd only just learned it didn't mean that and I was one of the racers!

Funny that when gruver dropped in the facetious LaTex, the X took a greek form of pronunciation. Then all the other Xs changed in my mind.

There is now one comment I almost always get now from beginners or general public first introduced to orienteering, and this is one we never heard five years ago, is "Oh, is it like geocaching". So any name / promotion discussion should look at distinguishing from geocaching (similar that you are in the woods, different that you are using a map and wits to navigate to a precise spot as opposed to following an electronic signal to within a few meters then playing hide and seek to find a hidden object).

I was also pleasantly surprised to find out that there is such a thing as competitive geocaching (and they actually used our club's orienteering maps in conjunction with a large event last year). So there is hope for substantial cross-pollination.


On a lighter note, @Bob-F: How about the last names of the organizers, and create an exclusive fraternity: Phi-Dav-Phi? Too bad Gail wasn't a Navis instead of a Davis.

Actually I believe she was originally a Phillips (they are all related) so how about Phi3?

+1 @tRicky

What happens if/when a new name is selected? If I read the 2017 budget correctly, OUSA's total spend on online advertising and marketing/branding is planned as

Mental GPSing?

ORaid
Oraiding
Pogaining
Roga

Gorunning or if your events are anything like we quite often get in West Aus, Goraining.

@UncleJim - Ironman 70.3 works because it doesn't have the 'half' in it and most of the population outside of triathlons don't get the significance of the 70.3, so you sound just as hardcore as those who do the actual ironman races when you talk about doing an Ironman 70.3, rather than just doing a 'long triathlon'

Lol, I now finally understand what that ridiculous 70.3 sticker on peoples cars was referring to (I always thought, double marathon? That can't be right, it should be 52.4).


I like the Nav24. Then, to make it more accessible, you can have the HalfNav24, and maybe even the OneThird Nav24: Work day edition. At least these wouldnt' be completely arbitrary distances like "marathon" and the even more ridiculous "half marathon" (I am personally holding out for the quarter marathon, 6.55, lol).

Formula 1. Dunno why I thought of that, perhaps its just that the engines have to be quiet now. Oh. Don't worry about looking for meaning. How about Formula 0.0?

Since I liked it and it was available, I grabbed navsports.org. I also setup:

• running.navsports.org
  
• ski.navsports.org
  
• biking.navsports.org
  
• crosscountry.navsports.org & xcountry.navsports.org
  
• trail.navsports.org
  

If it's handy, I'm happy to donate to Orienteering USA.

Nav-X is short and punchy

Unlike a rogaine.

But with something like "Nav-X" won't you be suffering from the same issue affecting "rogaine" -- that only those already in the know will get it?
Why not just "Navigation Race" (or x-hour Navigation Race)? "Navigation Race" isn't such a huge mouthful is it; and describes it quite accurately.

Nav X already exists as a thing in the USA, Northern California to be precise -> http://www.navxchallenge.com/about/

I think that at the very least PinkSocks steps or Hammers ideas should be reflected on before getting behind an idea... just a casual observation :)

Nav-X was mentioned in the very first post of this thread, so it was amusing to see it come up later as a seemingly original idea.

I really want to help, because:
a) I participate in rogaines
b) I follow the branding industry
c) I've long wanted a name change
d) I work for a for-profit company that organizes rogaines (and that went through this same exact discussion back ~2010)

Which is why I tried to steer the direction of the conversation to one that's more process-oriented and research-based. But other than a thoughtful post or two (thanks Hammer!), it's been a bunch of people throwing names at a wall and seeing what sticks. (And many of these people aren't in North America, so they aren't true stakeholders.)

I'll do my best to start answering the questions.

-- Why are you rebranding?

This question was answered in the initial post. "The main reason behind the change is to avoid the conflict with the hair care medicine of the same name and to provide a more marketable name for the sport... so that we can achieve more growth." So the ultimate goal is to grow the sport, and a name change will help.


-- What problem(s) are you trying to solve? Is your brand out-of-date, out-of-touch, or stuck in a rut?

Again, some of this is answered in the first post. I see two main problems. One is that there's an unavoidable naming conflict. If you're in the US, you cannot deny this, period, end of story. Two is that the name isn't relatable or descriptive. Yes, yes, I know that tennis and golf aren't descriptive, either, but those sports have centuries of history and positive brand equity. Naming trends (eg: movies) are becoming more descriptive, and with the rogaining committee having a limited budget, a more descriptive sport name is an asset, because you don't have to spend time or print space translating the name.


-- What are your products? How have they changed?

I don't know the full history of how rogaines have changed in the US over the years. The original product is a 24-hour, team-based, wilderness orienteering race on foot, where checkpoints have varying point values and can be visited in any order. Since then, we've added much shorter time limits, urban locations, and solo competitions.

That's where we are today. How do you see the product changing in the future? ~200 million people in the US now own a smartphone, most of which have GPS and map capabilities. Would a future product include the usage of these smart devices to allow for more people to try the sport? Remember the main reason for the rebrand is growth.

Because of how the sport has changed, using words like "team", "wilderness", or "forest", or using time limits, may be too specific, since we have solo events, urban events, desert events, and events with varying time limits. Even using words like "run" or "hike" could be misleading. There isn't much running in a 24-hour event, but there isn't much hiking in a 3-hour urban event.


-- Who are your customers (past, present, future)? How have they and their needs changed?

Again, I don't know the full history here. But there are a lot of people in this thread who are past and/or current customers. How have you and your needs have changed? From what I've read in this thread and what I've seen personally, current customers are orienteers and adventure racers. Some like to run, some like to hike. Some are competitive, some are recreational.

But we also need to look through the lens for future customers. Who are they, and where are they coming from? From this thread, we've identified trail/ultra runners, cross-country runners, and geocachers as potential customers. Are there others? What names would appeal to these new demographics?


-- Who are your competitors (for business)? How have they and their needs changed?

This one probably requires a little more research, but here are a few related to outdoors, terrain/obstacles, and finding things. These might be good target demographics.

* trail running: this sport is growing in attendance and has a wide variety of race lengths: from 5k to ultra marathons

* cross country running: the original off-track running sport, commonly found in US high schools and universities

* adventure racing: multi-sport, team-based race with navigation

* obstacle course running (OCR): very new sport (peaked ~2013), outdoors with obstacles, coalesced around the OCR term

* geocaching: location based activity with a decicated following, not really an organized competitive sport

* sport climbing: I only mention this one because it's a popular sport with roots in the outdoors that will be in the 2020 Olympics



-- What would your brand look like if you were starting from scratch today?

Perhaps the best place to start would be looking at those in the North American orienteering/rogaining community that have already rebranded their events in the past ~10 years.

* adventure running: this term has been a euphemism for orienteering for a while, but it's been in embraced in Hamilton, Ontario, leading to significant growth.

* navigation racing: this is what Mergeo, the event producer that I work for in Seattle, decided to call its rogaining events in 2010. (We've also been producing shorter urban rogaines since 2004 using the term "street scramble", which is trademarked.)

* map trekking: this is what Nav-X Challenge, the event producer in California, decided to call its rogaining events in 2016.

* navigation games: a new organization in Boston, focusing on teaching kids orienteering


-- Do you want an evolution or a revolution?

This is likely an evolution, because the product is remaining relatively the same, and there's no budget to really force a revolution. Hammer's suggestion of rebooting all navigation-related sports (orienteering, rogaining, adventure racing) is the the most revolutionary idea. Perhaps this is worth pursuing, but it would involve more stakeholders and likely a much larger budget.


-- What does your brand mean? What do you want it to mean? Why should people care?

At the end of all this, these are the last set of questions, and really, the most ideal for public response. What is our brand and why do we care about it?

And many of these people aren't in North America, so they aren't true stakeholders.

Yeah but Trump will ensure that whatever North America does, other countries will have to follow or else face annihilation, trade blocks, having a wall built around it, be subject to angry speeches, etc.

Why do I even try?

[leaves room]

Well to say the rest of the world isn't a stakeholder is a bit presumptuous. What if I travel to North America and want to do a rogaine but all I can find is this damned hair replacement product? Perhaps it should be called 'the sport formerly known as rogaining'. That way it has the word sport in it to distinguish it from the other one. The casual observer might then say 'This sounds like an intriguing activity. I wish to know more.'

There is some irony in the fact that we're trying to achieve growth, and are concerned about being confused with a product that, well...

Bare-headed NavXcitement.
Australian reference here... Strand-by-strand Pacy Bearings

Yawn. It has a name. It doesn't have to be descriptive.

In the interests of adding something productive to the conversation, I've been thinking about how/why rogaining has suddenly become so popular in South Australia, funny name not withstanding - and it really is due to one particular media-savvy person, with marketing experience and a strong Facebook presence https://www.facebook.com/SARogaining/

Having the tagline Rogaining An Adventure Strategy Sport, and slogans such as Plan. Seek. Find. plus promoting the team aspect (and yes, a bit of treasure-hunting) seems to have really paid off for our shorter/urban events and now we are getting gradual increases in the numbers at our longer bush events. Cross-promotion with orienteering, trail running and outdoor shops doesn't hurt either.

So it wasn't a rebadging, just an image-freshening (I was a bit sad when they took the walking-feet off the logo though). Now in SA when you mention orienteering people are likely to say "is that like rogaining?" rather than the other way around!

@Jennycas glad to see there are still floppy hats and gaiters in the picture though!

I feel suitably chastised. As someone who doesn't claim to understand "branding", I've learnt from reading the serious contributions.

@ PS - apology in advance for being an outsider, but:

Aren't you ignoring the other (possibly bigger and better-known) brand owned by OUSA? From where I sit, if you need to re-brand at all, then both products should be included, with the emphasis on the main one (the one that is part of the organisation's name). Or, just re-brand rogaining as a long distance/marathon version of the main product.

@jennycas the picture on that fb site makes me want to do the twilight race!

...and now we are getting gradual increases in the numbers at our longer bush events.

Meanwhile in WA, which used to have the biggest event numbers in the country, our numbers are very quickly decaying and I'm sure it's because we had a lot of old people on the committee who made a lot of dumb decisions about how the sport should be run.

@PS apologies too for contributing as an outsider. However sometimes you can be too close to a topic and need to get some fresh eyes. After all it is a forum. Notwithstanding some less than serious contributions there are some sound ideas above.

Make lemonade. Stop worrying about the fact the name is the same and embrace it - use the brand recognition of the hair restorer to your advantage.

Make a joke of the fact the name is the same. Show photos of very hairy men in the forest with maps and a caption like 'rogainers don't need Rogaine(TM)' or a smiling bald guy saying he doesn't care about Rogaine if he can go rogaining.

Those are lame I know - just off the top my head - but you get the idea. I'm sure someone could come up with much better lines.

just off the top my head

Sounds like you need Rogaine!

I think that Navigation Race works, as in 24 Hour Team Navigation Race, perhaps with a NavSport URL. Events with Rogaine in the name could keep that, with navigation race in the subtitle.

Fifth Annual Happy Valley Rogaine
24 Hour Team Navigation Race
happyvalley.navsport.info

I think that there are plenty of ideas above that meet the branding objectives.

Including the world helps if the rebrand ever expands to orienteering. ( Even with the slow increase in recognition of the term over my forty years in the sport, we'd be better off with an immediately understandable name.)

There are very few 24 hour rogaines in North America each year but CNYO have organized at least one per year for a quarter century. I would like to know what they think about a name change.

Hats off to CNYO for holding full-length rogaines every year for so long! I've been to a number of them and they do a great job. The level of participation isn't real high though (in 2016, there were 12 24-hour teams, 8 12-hour teams, and 4 6-hour teams), so if marketing the sport differently would result in more participation, if I were an organizer, I'd be delighted. Based on the couple times that our club has put on full-length rogaines, I know what an incredible amount of work it is. Having a better turnout would be both more satisfying, and more rewarding financially for the club.

Wow and here's me saying our association is dying when we had just 35 teams to our last event (a couple of years ago, 180-200 teams was the norm for both 12hr and 24hr events although the recent upside down 12hr rogaine would typically attract just 70-100 teams by comparison).

Robplow has it exactly right.

Pink Socks, in your professional branding experience, you don't think that the hilarous assocation with a hair regrowth product could be spun as a marketing advantage? In your profile, I see you were born in 1980, which borderline puts you in the generation that humour forgot, so I can see why you might not think this, lol.

All together now, to the tune of Eric Clapton's "Cocaine"

If you want to hang out, and run all about, Rogaine!
If you want to fall down, run 'round and around, Rogaine!
Get high, get high, get high,
Rogaine!

Embrace the hair restorer, have fun with the name, and just re-direct the hair restorer's billion dollar marketing that already created massive name recognition in our favor. I'm pretty sure it can be proven that the rogaine event was around before the hair product, if there was ever a legal question about rights to use the name...

We did it once.

I can visualize grandparents walking about with walking canes, and with their grandchildren toddling along, grazing the grasslands of Western Australia ...

Well said !!! #Rogaining @OrienteeringWA @OrienteeringAUS pic.twitter.com/Ddma2UlVWt

— Raccoongaine (@Raccoongaine) March 7, 2017

@sherpes Are you thinking of me?

@GHOSLO - thinking of the plushie beaver

Rogaining puts hairs on your chest...
Might not work for women.

Or maybe it does!!! Might be an idea not to advertise it :P

Maybe just use a codename, instead of saying " I went rogaining", one
would say "I did exercise 51" or such.

But the use of word rogaine should be officially banned, a fine for the first offense, then-- disqualification.

Here's an approach: www.blackballhilton.co.nz

I personally like the name "rogaining" and would oppose any change.

In orienteering, we don't have a separate word for the event itself, it is just an "orienteering event."

In rogaining, we could de-emphasize the use of the word "rogaine" (for people outside the sport) and just call it a "rogaining event."

I like "rogaining" - it reminds me of the word "roaming" which is really what we do - go roaming over a large piece of terrain in search of something. e.g. control locations.

When I am going to a rogaining event, I just tell people that rogaining is form of orienteering, a 24-hour team orienteering event, and they have no trouble understanding.

The above opinion from one of the top rogainers ever.

... who doesn't need to be marketed to.

Adventure Trek is being used by a local long foot navigation race. Seems like a good descriptor. I didn't read this whole thread, but OUSA would probably need to align with USARA as well since they both do rogaines?

rogaine... a 7 letter acronym associated with hair regeneration... yes, rename. maybe then I wouldn't be embarrassed to explain to my friends. a pretty brutal type of event advertised with being bald...???

No rogaines on the USARA calendar

Word mentioned three times in website of Ohio-based NSF Adventures. They had no shortage of participants.

... but then, not mentioned even once in Raccoongaine event description.... what is wrong with those yinzers ???

Thanks to everyone who gave input on this thread. We have compiled a list of the proposed replacement names for rogaining and will be using this list to help the OUSA Rogaining committee come up with a potential new name in the US. I also wanted to thank people who made suggestions for rebranding and marketing. These are all good ideas. As mentioned earlier, OUSA Rogaining comm. has no funds to pursue marketing but the new Nav-X Map Adventures club is certainly attempting to do this. We are spending hundreds of dollars on targeted facebook ads and we are seeing some new people show up as a result. Hopefully, we'll be able to write something up once we know more details about what works well and maybe have something quantitative to present.

Bill & Heidi Cusworth
Nav-X & OUSA Rogaining Comm

If the rest of the world calls minoxidil Regaine , and 24 hour team navigation Rogaine, then perhaps America should call the sport Regaine.

Thanks for the topic Bill and Heidi.

"When I am going to a rogaining event, I just tell people that rogaining is form of orienteering, a 24-hour team orienteering event, and they have no trouble understanding."

Jim, CNYO has been holding Regaines for years as part of their Trifecta Cup - along with the Snowgaine and their classic summer Rogaine..

Ah, all the good ideas are taken. ;-)

Why haven't the people who put on the most roagines in North America commented?

(a) They may not be active on AP.
(b) They may not have any good ideas for alternative names.

(c) Some of them may live in Canada ;-)

RLShadow is correct on (a)

(b) they all seem to think it's a stupid idea to change something that ain't broke, so why waste the time posting.

(c) they are busy mapping

Was a decision made?

My vote was for "navigation racing".

Name change - gotta be Farnarckling

the "World Farnarckling Championships" has a ring to it

Except the name change will only apply to the USA, unless Trump steps in.

tRicky. I was quite enjoying AP being a Trump-free zone.

I suppose this means you won't let me enter the NZ MTBO champs next year.

14th August 2017 - 2020 World Rogaining Championships awarded to USA

http://www.iberogaine.org/uploads/6/5/6/6/6566318/...

No WRC in 2018?

Nobody volunteered to host it.

https://attackpoint.org/eventdetail.jsp/event_3849... in case anyone didn't find it. Not a lot on the event website yet, but apparently there's a plan for a week or two of events.

The event website is a little too fancy, and I can't see some stuff on the screen because of the weird autoscrolling (running Firefox).

50% of the gallery photos seem to imply that I can do the event on my bike, hooray! Also yeah that scrolly thing is irritating.

Well, the main screen of the event website is a bunch of logos and the names of orienteering clubs that are presumably involved in the overall festival, plus a blurb about two weeks of orienteering and rogaining leading up to WRC2020, bringing the family, and seeing Disneyland, Hollywood, Yosemite and Lake Tahoe. (I'm guessing the events go from LA up to Truckee, though maybe seeing those sites is for between events, not during. ;-)

btw, notice how the 12-hr rogaine by the Northeast Ohio Orienteering club dances around the "R" word and prefers marketing itself as an adventure race

Everything is an adventure race these days. The most popular so called "ARs" in my state don't have any navigation!

And around here they ALL have nav, albeit sometimes dodgy. Do you think its a coincidence that this has produced world champions?

One adventure race that I participated in had deliberately dodgy navigation, which actually helped the orienteers massively. After biking along a mountain ridge with flowers at sunset, I came down a hill to find dozens of bicycles lying on the grass with their riders sitting aside them. As I approached, someone that I didn't recognize pointed and said "he's an orienteer!". Immediately everyone got back on their bikes. Apparently they'd been riding up and down a major valley looking for the side trail leading to the next checkpoint, unsuccessfully. A glance at the map and terrain showed a deep side valley off the main valley, visible from a kilometer away even in the dimming light, which the side trail was shown heading up. Although the side trail was faint, it was easy to find using the contours, which I'm guessing the others weren't reading so much. I moved up to seventh place (out of several dozen teams I recall) at the next checkpoint. The organizer was an orienteer, and I think that she deliberately chose somewhere that reading more than the trails would really help. Did I just hijack another thread? Sorry, gruver's comment just triggered a counterintuitive memory. Back to the topic...I think that "adventure race" is fine if that's understood and popular. (Then again, I'm fine with "navigation race", "rogaine", "regaine", "snogaine" or whatnot.)

We had a rogaine called the Wotnot Welter once so that last suggested name change is in familiar territory.

Just call it a marathon.

That is what my mom calls it. Doesn't matter if it's a Rogaine, orienteering or even the commute ride to work and back. All are called marathons to her. You get used to it.

Also MTBO Worlds is also The Olympics no matter how many times you tell her otherwise.

We can call it Marklar Silly Walk amongst ourselves, but a good name will indeed have a positive effect on popularity of this sport around here.