Discussion: He's going the distance!

Did you know that the USA has a runner on H21 ELIT at the O-Ringen? HVO's own Jeremy Colgan is out there representing the USA in this lofty category. Jeremy has been very consistent and is taking about 3 times as long to finish the course as the 1st place runner.

No trophy, no flowers, no flash bulbs, no wine.
But.. He's going the distance!

Good for him. Don't forget about Boris as well!!!

Edit: ...and Sandra, Suzanne, and Eddie too!

Because he's racing and pacing and plotting the course,
He's fighting and biting and riding on his horse.
He's going the distance....

:-)

Indeed!!! Can someone explain the different categories to me H21 has
H21 ELIT
H21 LANG
H21 KORT
H21 MOTION
Whats the difference ?
besides distance.

H21SE = Super Elite, the category for World Cup runners
H21E = Elite, the category for really good runners - most of them close to the level of the Swedish national team, but not quite there
H21Lang = Long, the category for those who aren't quite good enough for elite (at least not good enough to be among the leaders), but can handle the distance similar to what elites are running
H21 = Normal H21, for the competitive orienteer who is probably not in the best shape of his life
H21 Kort = Short, often the category for good orienteers recovering from injuries or for a recreational orienteer wanting a challenge
H21 Motion = Recreational, the category for the non/competitive H21

Now, to respond to Bernard's comment about Jeremy. It is, of course, Jeremy's personal choice to run elite, and I commend him for finishing some of the days. On the other hand, as an American orienteer trying hard to become better, it is a little frustrating for me to watch Jeremy come in more than an hour behind the second-to-last person in his category each day. American orienteering is already considered a joke or a laughingstock in Scandinavia, and performances like that on the biggest orienteering stage in the world do nothing to disprove this myth and to help American orienteers who are training hard and trying to improve to start being taken seriously. I understand the desire to tackle the challenge of running H21E, but there is a reason it is called Elite.

I couldn't agree with you more Boris. Even the subject of the thread "He's going the distance" is a song about a guy doing race that he has lost and should have dropped out of.
j-man picked up on it... he quoted some of the lyrics.

When I did the Finn-5 last year I picked a category that reflected my ability. I was able to stay competitive and did not come accross as an "America Idiot". Wait.... That's another song!!!
Thank heaven that Jeremy has a Irish accent. They will nuke the Irish.

It is rather common for Swedish recreational runners too, to run in the elite class at regular competitions (especially middle distance).

I can see a parallel, where orienteering as a sport is struggling to be taken seriously in Sweden, a little bit like USA and Canada are struggling to be taken seriously in the international O community. So I think it is in the interest of the organizers to keep the level high and they should have done a better job of checking the status of some of the foreign runners before accepting them in the elite class.

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more with Boris. Having "embarrassed" the US on a regular basis in elite international competitions, this is an issue near and dear to my heart.

If Jeremy makes the sacrifice to spend the time, money, and energy to experience our sport at the highest level, I think that he has the right to the full experience. I imagine that if he wanted to finish in the money with his pride intact, he could have stayed home and run a local blue course. The goal of such a trip is to put some context on the limited NA O experience. I know that I would not really appreciate the speed and skill of an elite orienteer if not for my experience in M21A and Elite races in northern europe.

If the organizer chooses to only allow qualified people to maintain overall quality, that is their choice. But it is quiet condescending and demeaning to suggest that non-elite visitors should restrict themselves to easier courses to maintain our national dignity.

To each his own.............
No biggy.

"If Jeremy makes the sacrifice to spend the time, money, and energy to experience our sport at the highest level, I think that he has the right to the full experience."

Jeremy has clearly not made the sacrifice of time and energy.

In the big picture he further hurts the case of US runners to get spots in WC events or other select events, a case that is already weak, but there are many other US orienteers who have made much greater commitments and are more deserving of these dwindling spots.

To be fair to Jeremy, he apparently realized his mistake weeks ago, and was looking for someone, on this very website, to take, or switch his spot. Apparently there were no takers.

In the big picture he further hurts the case of US runners to get spots in WC events or other select events, a case that is already weak, but there are many other US orienteers who have made much greater commitments and are more deserving of these dwindling spots.

I don't believe Jeremy took anyone's place. True, the O-Ringen organizers may only be inclined to accept one applicant into the Elite from the lesser counties, but Jeremy was that applicant. If those "more deserving" people did not bother to show up, they have no business ridiculing someone who did—it's as simple as that. This also goes with all the blabber about not having enough WCup slots, and then not running. That seems to me to hurt the cause for expanded WOC/WCup participation a lot more than someone who honestly tries to finish a course that is at the limit of his abilities.

With all due respect, how do someone's slow times hurt another person's ability to improve? Unless they are tied together with a WeGo®, this doesn't compute for me. Is the logic that if runner A is slow, and runners A and B are from the same country, then B is less of an athlete? How about A and B both having the same first name? Would that make B's times any faster or slower? What about A and B being born in the same year? Both liking mediocre music? What about decent music? I think the best way to be taken seriously is to show serious results.

A nation gets more respect, if it's national team performs well against other national teams in championship level races, or national team runners perform well in any race. If some random recreational runners enjoy their holiday by making far from perfect runs, it doesn't affect anything in my eyes.

I have once been dead last in Kainuun Rastiviikko H21 ELIT. I have ran very bad races in H21E in Spain, being almost last and also the only Finn. I didn't feel like I was hurting anyone (but me) and I don't think Spanish runners believed Finns are not good at all in orienteering just because I wasn't too good.

How about A and B both having the same first name?

In case you didn't know there is two "Pasi Ikonen" names orienteers out there. The younger one is the WOC winner, but the older Pasi Ikonen isn't too bad either, for example he won Tiomila 1983 for Kalevan Rasti.

Vlad,

First of all, no one is saying that Jeremy took away a spot from someone in H21Elite. I don't know where you got that idea. H21Elite in O-Ringen has nothing to do with the World Cup, so I don't really understand why you brought that up.
And then you take the argument to an extreme. It is specifically because _US_ orienteering has a weak reputation in the international O-community that I think Jeremy's performance may hurt the chances of _US_ orienteering to start being taken seriously in the near future. It is not because guys named Jeremy or guys who like decent music have a poor reputation in the international O-community.

Again, Vlad,

If those "more deserving" people did not bother to show up, they have no business ridiculing someone who did?it's as simple as that.

I take it (though I may be wrong here) that you are referring specifically to me not running the World Cup races. The last time I checked, the US Orienteering Team did not select or appoint a team for World Cup races. In fact, it is usually more of a "who wants to go and run these races?" sort of thing. If such a team were selected and I happened to be named to it, of course I would run and I would feel honored doing so. However, since this is not the case, I feel that I can plan my racing season around the races I consider to be the most important, in this case, WOC. At WOC, I will be running the middle and sprint distances. Thus, running an ultra-long race as a qualifier for the middle distance didn't make much sense to me. Instead, this time (note, I say this time because there are plenty of times over the course of the year when I race against world-class competition, including in OK Linne's club championships) I decided to select a category that I could be competitive in and actually fight for one of the top spots. I felt, and still do, having completed O-Ringen, that this would be a very good way for me to get some self-confidence going into WOC, while still racing against top-notch competition. Obviously, there are other points of view, but I am just presenting my own reasoning, keeping in mind my specific goals in orienteering.

As I read it, when writing about WC (WCup) eligibility rules, Vlad was simply referring to the belief (that I also hold) that all the moaning about changes to WC (note: not WOC) qualification rules about eight months ago was a bit ridiculous in view of the fact that the US (and most other affected countries) seldom send more than one or two runners anyway. I didn't read him as specifically badmouthing you, Boris.

About picking a category. I ran O-Ringen 2004 in Göteborg. I picked H21 'normal'. I saw no point running in ELIT, in ELIT field is so strong racing is like "I just try my best and see how far it takes me", I would have get places in second half, 50th-70th. Not possible to win anything, there is nothing to loose, no stress, no pressure or much excitement. In H21 'normal' I was one of the top runners, a lot like Boris now in LANG. With perfect run I had chances to win a single day and with five perfect get a good placing overall (Boris had fair chances wining yesterday). But it is very close race, couple of minutes mistakes and I'd be out miserably. I felt the pressure every moment, I wasn't only trying to do a perfect run, I was also fighting for a win. And I knew all the time I can easily loose it all if I so something stupid. Under the pressure, every day, five days in a row. It was fun, challenging, exiting and educating experience to run a whole week under such a pressure. I managed to win one day (2nd or 3rd day), but I tried too much on middle distance 4th day and made two big mistakes and lost my chances to 3rd place. I was finally about 5-7th overall. It was much better and educating experience than any ELIT week with 70th placings would ever have been - I have run those weeks too, nothing learned there...

KORT was too shout for me and I though there would be too much "empty kilometers" in LANG. Terrains are not always so perfect and some of it may be saved for ELIT -classes, course planners has to you get the distance right so they will easily end up planing LANG courses on not so perfect areas. I guess that may have happened this year too.

American orienteering is already considered a joke or a laughingstock in Scandinavia,

This strikes me as a ridiculously negative statement. There's a big difference between being dismissed as competition and being an embarrassment (or a laughingstock). With such a negative attitude I'd imagine we'd be stuck as a third tier country forever. I don't recall ever seeing a Scandinavian bent over laughing at an American as they ran the finish chute.

and performances like that on the biggest orienteering stage in the world do nothing to disprove this myth and to help American orienteers who are training hard and trying to improve to start being taken seriously.

I don't believe that the reputation of individual orienteers is hurt by the performance of other individual orienteers from the same country. (I believe that's what Vlad is saying.) If individuals wish to improve their reputation (or the reputation of US orienteering) then they need to go out there and race well at the highest levels and stop bitching about what other people are or aren't doing.

People have their own reasons for racing particular races and that's what it is. My beef is with how negative much of this thread is. How about some contagious PMA?

Or (to make this more American), contagious obesity? (Tongue firmly in cheek.)

What is PMA?

Boris asks:

no one is saying that Jeremy took away a spot from someone in H21Elite. I don't know where you got that idea

I wrote this because EricW wrote:

he further hurts the case of US runners to get spots in WC events or other select events ... there are many other US orienteers who ... are more deserving of these dwindling spots

I understood the "other select events" part to apply to this case, H21E at O-Rngen. The Elite is kind of open, but then it's really not. The organizers decide who they let in, and allow about one runner in for the lesser O-countries. I understand Jeremy was that runner. Other runners could have run, but didn't. US Team ESC could have made a policy about such events, but didn't. Jeremy applied and got in. I thought this fact seriously weakened EricW's argument.

I do think taking someone to account for lack of dedication in preparation has its place, but only if that someone is a part of the national Team that uses public/shared/contributed resources. The latter is clearly not the case with Jeremy.

To ridicule people who perform poorly must be an American thing - we don't do that in Scandinavia.

I thought that the American thing was to praise people who perform at or below average.

This thread seems to be getting nasty.

I agree, this discussion needs to stop right here!

I'm having a seriously difficult time not responding to this thread...

I am buying round of ice-cold liquid carbs next time I see Jeremy for causing such 'heated' discussion.

So what that he intentionally or unintentionally signed up for higher group he should have! I do think it was unintentional but how knows and who cares. But at least he will have story to tell his grandkids now. I don't see anything embarrassing about it.

Only way I could see this as emberrasment is to perform as Jeremy is performing at O-Ringen and on top of that he is caught using illegal substances like scores of professional cyclists in France...

Several thoughts:

1. If the organizers allow people of all abilities to run elite, then indeed anybody can run elite and there shouldn't be any real argument about whether they should or shouldn't do so. Of course anyone can have an opinion about this, but when it comes down to it, if a person chooses to run elite and the organizer lets him, then what's the problem?

2. Although I personally think it is more fun and satisfying to run in a class where I can be competitive, this is not the case for everyone. If an orienteer wants to go and run elite just to run the distance and have the experience, that's fine by me.

3. Yes, there may be some Scandinavian orienteers that will look at American runners doing big events like Oringen and decide that Americans aren't very good, but this is hopefully not the case at serious meetings where World Cup or WOC numbers are decided. I am pretty sure that if the people in charge are at all reasonable, then they will look at world ranking points and the top runners from each country rather than mumble something about a random American that ran elite in the summer of 2007.

4. I think it's unfair to imply that Jeremy is representing the U.S. by running elite. If he was running the World Cups, then that would be true, but he is simply running one of the tougher categories at Oringen. So it seems to me that he is running for himself and not for the country. Therefore, his results should be his own personal business.

Thus, to summarize, I see nothing wrong with Jeremy running elite at Oringen, as long as he has fun doing so. :)

Thank you, Kat. Said very well. I'm feeling slightly better about this thread now.

Agree with Kat. I was trying to say something similar myself, but when I read what I wrote again, I think I failed. I don't think running elite class as a recreational runner is an embarrassment for an individual, his/her club or country. Possibly for the organizers, but that is their problem

I think the level of American orienteering will be judged by the performance of the top American orienteers at WOC and WC.

If it was me, I would run elite also - just to see what the real orienteering is about.Not to mention, that my first o-race in my life was Red. But at least 12 months preparation would be performed beforehand.

I think it's unfair to imply that Jeremy is representing the U.S. by running elite. If he was running the World Cups, then that would be true

Even then, so what? If that's the best (only) runner from the US to enter, then so be it.

I've been trying to get myself to a level where I might be named to the US Standing Team and enter a World Cup. If that happens, I'll likely be one of the worst people entered. I may well finish last. I would hope that wouldn't be embarrassing to the rest of the team, but if it is, that's their problem, not mine.

This is kind of like comparing the Boston Marathon and the Olympic Marathon. There are thousands that squeak by and qualify for the Boston and just go for the experience. Sure, it is the premiere marathon event in the world but that depth of field is what makes Boston so amazing. You will see all types out there on the road. The same is not true for the Olympic event. When you walk up to the starting line, you know you are up against some of the best in the world and you won't see the guy running in a chicken suit like you will at Boston. For whatever reason, Jeremy ended up lining up with the elites at the starting line. This isn't the World Cups so I say "More power to ya chicken man.....I mean Jeremy".

This is somewhat related to the subject...

First time I met Jeremy was at West Point meet in 2005. We were all ready to leave for start at the back of open Army truck when this dude runs up and ask to wait for couple moments till he gets all his stuff ready. While riding to start he was telling about his experience at first orienteering meet ever for him which happen to be years earlier at West point. Not knowing anything better Jeremy signed up for age group according to his age - blue course. Since he was total newbe to orienteering he inquired about route strategy. Advice he got from someone was to keep to straight line as possible. According to Jeremy - he obliged to "experts" advice. For those who are familiar with West Point terrain you can imagine what kind of cliimbs he had to endure...