Discussion: Colorado Five-Day Results

Until today, the website for the USOF Convention and Colorado Five Day Meet specified that the final registration cut-off was 11:59pm MDT on Saturday, 7/28.

I just found out the deadline was moved up to 11:59pm MDT on Thursday, 7/26, for some reason. (And I just updated the website.)

So...it's time to take action if you've been dragging your feet!

http://www.colorado5day.com/

Bumping this back up again because the deadline's TONIGHT!!!!

Detailed course notes have just been published for all five events: http://www.colorado5day.com/content/view/67/46/

Start lists have just been published for all five events. http://www.colorado5day.com/component/option,com_d...

Results from Day 1 and Day 2 have just been posted at http://www.colorado5day.com/content/view/15/31/

We want to see some maps!!!

Day 1 map is embargoed until after the Wednesday Night-O...
We're working on RG for Day 2.

Okay, I'll be patient...

Here's a question... why are the maps "embargoed"? I thought that if a map to be used for an A meet had been used for a previous race then the organizers had to make copies available to everyone. After all, the people who ran on Saturday have seen it, even if they don't still have it with them. Not exactly fair to others who haven't seen it.

That's a very interesting point Captain. I vote for you for president.

I believe I heard discussion that a map is to be posted at the site before the event on Wednesday...

That's a very interesting point Captain. I vote for you for president.

Would you like a cabinet position? Secretary of Polymers, perhaps?

If you're gonna lock me in a cabinet, I'll take the medicine cabinet.

I'm showing up for a NIGHT-O in 36 hours and I don't even get to see a map of the terrain that everyone else has competed in twice? I guess I'll just have to be patient... In the support of fairness ;-)

After I finished the Day 1 race the organizers forgot to collect my map from me. I was walking around with it in my hand for an hour or so before another competitor pointed out that I ought to hand it over, which I did.

Studying the Day 2 map will definitely come in handy in terms of getting a better feel for the terrain, although running there twice was of course even more important. I would offer to let everyone study my Day 2 map, except I'm not even sure if I'll arrive on time for my 10:30pm start tomorrow, and I might not have the time to scan it tonight.

,,,,no time....yeah,,,,that's the ticket.....!

With vmeyer still working on RG, we want to see MAPS!

Nag, nag, nag, nag.

Speaking of maps. There is no model event for the events at Woodland Park. I find this to be a bit bizzare given that it's a National Championship meet, but that's what it is. I'm arriving in Denver at 3PM Thursday, which does afford some time for a quick jog in the terrain. I'm wondering if anybody would like to meet up for a short session on a map that's somewhat representative of the area. I've never orienteered in the Colorado and it sure would be nice to have some idea of what to expect.

I've never orienteered in the Colorado and it sure would be nice to have some idea of what to expect.

Expect a paucity of oxygen molecules.

PG's once-much-updated website is usually the first place to try for old maps. Manitou Lake, for example, is number 22 in the 2003 list. I realize this isn't a model event, but it is useful.

Expect a paucity of oxygen molecules.

I didn't say I've never raced in Colorado - just haven't had to navigate while doing so. I've been in plenty of bike races going above 10,000 feet. Fortunately, my past results would indicate no real problems with altitude below that level. The venues at Woodland Park are getting pretty close to that, but I should be OK.

I can't remember an event where the maps were not returned after the last person started. I really think it is ridiculous to keep Saturday's maps until after the Night O on Wednesday. One of the real pleasures of an O meet is discussing the courses, and not to get the maps after the event is a real disappointment. As somebody already said, the people who competed on Saturday potentially may have an advantage to those who did not, and they will not even be able to see the map. I don't even like to collect the maps after a run, and don't do so unless it is a national championship. I think most orienteers will not show the map to somebody who has not started yet, and yet the policy of collecting maps really detracts from the pleasure of the post race discussion. And to not return the maps for almost 5 days is absurd. The people who do not run the Night O may never get their maps back.

Well hey if I miss my Night-O start, at least I can study the Day 1 map as a consolation.

Slightly relevant: is anyone driving from Denver towards the meet site Thursday evening? My flight arrives at 9pm and I'm looking to save Valerie the late wait.

I don't want to be pissy about it, but it appears that the National Championships are pretty much an organizational afterthought. From the website, I find nothing on model/training opportunities, when I can get my packet on Thursday, or how to even get to the start on Friday (where I can finally get my packet a whopping 83 minutes prior to my start). Can anybody fill in some missing information, or is this really it?

From the RMOC website:

Manitou Lake is a US Forest Service area located about five miles north of Woodland Park on Highway 67. Saylor Park is located along Rampart Range Road. The closest city is Woodland Park.

That seems pretty clear. Why would you need your packet the night before? The start lists and course details are up on the web... The website seems really good to me. The lack of a model event is a bit strange, I'll give you that.

I don't need the packet the night before, but it is customary to provide that option. That way one can get clue sheets ready, pin the number on and all that in advance so that race morning can be devoted to focusing on orienteering.

I certainly do hope that the directions to the park are sufficient to find the start. Given the rather short amount of time I'll have to collect my stuff and get ready, I'd feel a bit better with more detail, even if it was just "follow the orange & white signs to the start."

Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk about it; if the start really is easy to find AND it doesn't take a long time to drive from the park entrance to the event parking AND there's no significant distance from the parking area to the start AND there's adequate facilities to take care of pre-race needs, then there's no problem. But I don't know how I get that from the website.

They are not distributing loose clue sheets until crossing the first prestart line.

Saylor Park is a good 30 minute drive from Woodland Park and Woodland Park is at least 30 minutes from Colorado Springs so allow plenty of time to get there. The long O will be a mass start at 9:00 am.

The course setter's notes are NOT on the website, or at least I can't find them, certainly not under Courses, where one would expect to find them.

They are not distributing loose clue sheets until crossing the first prestart line.

Will they be collecting them afterwards until the last runner starts? I've always felt it a bit silly to be inconsistent on this and inconsistent with map security.

Saylor Park is not an actual "park" in the modern sense - don't expect to see signs, a ranger station, picnic tables and ball fields. Its just a patch of forest in the middle of a huge National Forest on the side of a long N-S gravel forest service road. Last time I was there parking was along the road. Its quite some distance N of Woodland Park...about as far N as the Manitou Lake map is (although on a parallel road, high above on a ridge). It will seem like you've been driving a really long way on that gravel road before you get there. Lots of side roads, so be wary. Hopefully it will be well O-signed. Give yourself plenty of time to get there. The last time I went looking for it to do some training I never found it - apparently we pulled up short. Alexei and I just gave up and camped on the side of the road. Its real purdy up there. Its also at a very high altitude - over 3000m. Is it the highest map in the US? I think there was a thread on this subject once. I also remember that it had some magnetic issues. I'd really like to run there again though.

It's a point for a different thread I suppose, but I don't understand the secrecy around clue sheets. So what if you figure out that you have a common control (or even leg) with another course. How could that information possibly be useful? Just adds a stupid and sometimes non-trivial task (the sheet may need to be folded, trimmed to fit in the holder) to the time when you should be putting together your focus for the event.

Ah well, enough rants. I am very much looking forward to the weekend and as one who has hosted a Championship meet, I certainly don't mean to snipe at the organizers. I do appreciate those who responded here to my request for more information.

Saylor Park/Manitou Lake Google map Saylor Park proper is the "J" shaped grassy area just E of Rampart Rd. I seem to recal the map is W of Rampart Rd. presumably somewhere near Saylor Park. You can see Manitou lake in the lower left on Rt 67.

but I don't understand the secrecy around clue sheets

The theory is, coupled with the map, you can determine the control locations. I've seen this done with astounding accuracy by a well-regarded Mid-Atlantic area orienteer. I personally don't think it is all that fun to do, tho I do not describe it as cheating if the information is public and available to everyone. I certainly have no problem with competitors gaining any advantage they can within legal means. Given this putative threat to security, it is just strange to not collect them afterwards if you make such a security statement up front.

Now, if the map is embargoed, that is a wholly different question, and I agree totally pointless. I'm certain I've run on Manitou Lake, so I doubt it is embargoed, tho I have not been following that discussion too closely.

I'm pretty sure I had a control on one of these boulders/knolls at Manitou Lake.

The course setter's notes are NOT on the website, or at least I can't find them, certainly not under Courses, where one would expect to find them.

Check the headline at the very top of the home page: "Course Details Are Now Available". How much more obvious could I make it?

That link takes you to the Courses page where, again, the links to Course Notes are top and center.

The Course Details (Course Notes) give you specific directions to each venue as well as walking distance to the Start.

-- Webmaster

p.s. The third item in this thread is "Detailed Course Notes have just been published" -- with a direct link.

Check the headline at the very top of the home page: "Course Details Are Now Available". How much more obvious could I make it?

Fair enough, and thanks for clarifying. If you want a serious answer to your question (with no disrespect intended), I expected to find directions under the "Travel" link.

The theory is, coupled with the map, you can determine the control locations.

Yes, I've heard that, but I don't think you need control descriptions to pull it off. Sufficient study of any map will yeild a reasonable set of candidate legs. The clues make this exercise easier, but they are not required. I remember hearing Tero claim that he had "mentally" run every leg in the WOC Middle course prior to the event a few years back simply (and tediously) by figuring out all the legs worthy of a WOC course beforehand. The only way to prevent this is to map a new area.

Canada now has 10 courses for championships. That's a lot of courses to plan. So what if you decide to have a few not just common controls, but common legs? Distributing the control description (clue sheet for the Americans ;-D ) at the start allows the course setter to use his best legs on a few different courses without having racers know that they could just follow John if they happen to see him on that leg. I've also seen common 1st control for people starting at the same time.
Regarding the size and all, at the COC's this year they gave you the exact size of the control description in your meet package so you could make sure it fitted. With e-punch these days almost everybody has a control description holder now adn the size is quite standard. I've never had to "fold" a control description to fit it in the holder.
If getting your control description on the line makes you lose your focus on the upcoming race, I suggest you make taking your control description and put it in the holder as part of your pre-race ritual. It will actually become a calming and planned event that will help you focus on your race.

But now that Randy has suggested we should also collect them at the end of the race... yikes, never thought of that! Makes sense though!

I don't understand the secrecy around clue sheets.

I always thought of the clue-sheets-at-start-line-only as an organizer convenience/fairness/save the trees issue, not one of secrecy per se. I.e. in order to give the descriptions in advance, the organizer has the option of either giving everyone the specific descriptions for his/her entered course, or a set of all descriptions for all courses. In the former case there is added work for the organizer to match up the sheets with the competitors—the task is trivial and requires an about 2nd-grade education/experience, but from personal experience, an advanced degree does not make it go any faster, and is not a good use of said degree. On top of that (the "convenience/fairness" part I mentioned, as opposed to secrecy/fairness), if the competitor then decides to switch his/her course and the sheets are not available at the starting line, s/he will have none. You could have individual descriptions at the registration and have the competitors be responsible for picking them up, of course, but then this is a bit unfair to those who can't make it to the registration or show up after the registration closes. Make the sheets available at the start—after all, that's where the maps are, and nobody is going to run without their map.

In the latter, labor-saving case (preferred option for most organizers), Kinko's wins and the trees lose.

Typically the trees lose a lot more from turgid meet notes than from 1 or 2 pages of clue sheets in the packet.

I always thought of the clue-sheets-at-start-line-only as an organizer convenience/fairness/save the trees issue, not one of secrecy per se.

In that case, they ought to just have them right around the start area for runners to pick up at their leisure; not be so formal about an extra start box and extra official(s) for this purpose. That's the answer IMO (and I don't necessarily advocate picking them up post race per se; it was more a point demonstrating the silliness of the status quo). Some big races I've been to even have officials who's job it is to help you tape them/cut them/preen them in that scant 60 seconds you have to do so. Of course, unlike Eric, I've logged training hours on this task to it is not an issue for me :)

I have personally been chastised by a meet official at a USOF A meet for accidently taking mine a minute too early. While this was an honest mistake, and I had no intent to cheat, had no idea what competitive advantage I would be gaining, and would gladly take a DSQ for my grave offense against the gods if the rules were such and I was an ignorant rube, my actual unspoken response was that if security was so bloody crucial, then make sure it is impossible for people accidently take them early. I agree with Eric that the whole thing just seems absurd to me. (And also agree with Eric that this belongs in another thread. No intent to question or challenge what the Colorado people were doing specifically. It just shows how bored you can get sometimes).

I apologize for not being able to find the Course Setter's notes. When I printed the courses page just before I left town, I did not see the course setter's notes now available. I was in a hurry, and thought they would be at the bottom of the page, and was surprised they weren't there when I looked. I also checked the website before I made my previous post, but overlooked that I had to click another link to get to the actual course setter's notes.

evancuster wrote:
I apologize for not being able to find the Course Setter's notes. When I printed the courses page just before I left town, I did not see the course setter's notes now available.

I've always thought that all Event webpages should have a clearly linked single page that has all the information a competitor needs to "print in a hurry just before leaving town". Usually one is scrambling around on a Friday afternoon trying to tie up loose ends at work before rushing out the door - it's nice to be able to hit a single Print button and know you have all the info you need.

Results from the US Night-O Championships have just been posted. Thanks, vmeyer, for generating all the results files! http://www.colorado5day.com/content/view/15/31/

it's nice to be able to hit a single Print button and know you have all the info you need

How about assembling everything into one PDF? And to make sure that updated information is available and obvious to everyone (that may have printed an earlier version) make it like for example at WOC´s - publish numbered 'Bulletins'...

If you publish Bulletins, you then get rave reviews of your "turgid meet notes".

Kindly submit any turgid meets notes for which you wish to garner rave reviews and I'll see what I can do.

WinsSplits for today's Short Championships are online.

(For the record, I had nothing to do with this efficiency. I am just the messenger. Thank Valerie.)

Regarding the size and all, at the COC's this year they gave you the exact size of the control description in your meet package so you could make sure it fitted.

This was a WRE requirement, I recall.

With e-punch these days almost everybody has a control description holder now and the size is quite standard. I've never had to "fold" a control description to fit it in the holder.

I did measure my control description holder during the course setters' discussions of how big to make the control descriptions, as a reality check. Maybe recommended maximum dimensions should be a part of the COF/USOF officials' info. I do recall very occasionally getting huge descriptions that don't fit, or need extreme trimming. (Then again, I managed to finish my JK Relay leg after ripping off half the descriptions while opening the envelope too hastily, so maybe missing a few control descriptions isn't so bad...;-)

I've always thought that all Event webpages should have a clearly linked single page that has all the information a competitor needs to "print in a hurry just before leaving town".

Indeed, why not just have a standard web site format? Every event has the same info. Have a "vote" for which web site worked best, and copy that for each event. Change the colors, text and terrain photos, and you're done. It would make it a lot easier to figure out under what heading to expect Directions or Course Setter Notes or Model Event, in a Friday panic.

Then maybe someone will whip up an app to text the page of vital info to your cell phone when you forget to print it out. ;-)

Indeed, why not just have a standard web site format?

This has as much chance to fly as a standard results program pre-SI. Too many overqualified people around busy reinventing wheels.

Yes, I have a control code holder. I've never seen one referred to as standard, but mine doesn't seem that different than many others I've seen. I've had to either trim or fold clue sheets at several meets this year to get it to fit. I don't mind doing this, but my preferred soloution is to cut the sheet in two and then put a piece of tape on the top sheet. When I get to the last control on the first sheet, I simply pull it out and put it in my pocket, leaving the remaining clues exposed. Obviously, this is not feasible if one receives the sheet 1 minute before the start.

Couldn't you just fold an extra long sheet in half and then turn it over?

I've had to fold long control description sheets and pull them out to flip them over during the run. I don't think this takes much more effort than folding a map for the next leg, but I guess that depends on the type of holder and how adept you are at doing this stuff without looking... I'd certainly prefer not to have to do it...

And today's WinSplits for the US Long Champs are now online.

(Again, don't thank me, thank Valerie.)

Has old man Dave Pruden passed the doping control? An M50(?), even older than Mikell, beating all those M21's!

Results from Day 4 (Short-O) have just been posted. http://www.colorado5day.com/content/view/15/31/

I assume Valerie (the SI Master) might be en route to the airport at this moment. But, I hope to have the Day 5 (Long-O) and Sprint Relay results posted soon, too.

Halden won the sprint relay.

>Halden won the sprint relay.

That's shocking

I am in Manitou Springs for the evening. Brooke will get the results up soon, and then we'll work on RG next, I swear, really! :)

Wasn't HVO the favorite?

I have folded the descriptions and flipped them many times. If the descriptions get wet or you are sweaty, it can be a difficult operation to get them back in my holder. When carefully covered with tape and trimmed it is much easier.

Is there going to be a routegadget available for this event? That would make me happy.

bbrooke would be the one to ask about RouteGadget, but I believe there will be links to it at some point.

It took us a while to get all the necessary OCAD files from the course setters (maps + courses). vmeyer has it all collected now, so we'll be working on it this afternoon...(I just now received one set of files from her).

Brooke and I have the RG posted for the Long and the Short. The Night, and Days 1 & 2 will follow in the near future.

Alrighty -- RouteGadget is ready now for all five events.

http://www.rmoc.org/gadget/cgi-bin/reitti.cgi

Thanks again to vmeyer for creating and sending over all the necessary files.

Thanks to bbrooke for getting all of the RG files up. I appreciate working with such a fine team member!

And, we expect those of you who were anxiously awaiting RG to get your routes drawn in soon.

Hmm... the first control of Blue Day 2 was on the rock NW of the cliff where it is marked in RG, and the second control was in the reentrant just north of where it is marked.

Thanks for posting the maps though - I hope more people enter their routes.

Oh, well, I hope that is the worst of the misplaced circles.

I got files where I could, and I must have gotten an earlier version of the Day 2 OCAD course file than what was printed. At the time, I only needed the file to make the courses in the SI software. It didn't occur to me that this may not have been what was printed.

Mikkel, you're correct, those two are off and I'm not sure why. I just checked the file I exported the data from and in the file they're still in the printed position... Who knows!

Ah, but I didn't use a file from Christoph...the file I used has the circles as shown in RG, so perhaps it is an earlier version?

The long-o course on route gadget is definitely using an older map.Some marshes and logging updates are missing. It was still sufficient to mark the route though.

The information sent to RouteGadget includes the relative position of the controls to each other,but it does not include information about the controls' location relative to the jpg map file that is uploaded.

Hence - the webmaster must 'fit' the control locations to the map. This is a bit of a finicky process and often controls in RouteGadget will be slightly off from where they actually were on the competition map.

That is my guess about what is 'wrong'

Interesting... Well as Ben said, it wasn't difficult to draw an approximation, although for a short while I was scratching my head wondering why I picked the high route from #1 to #2... :)

Only two routes drawn for Blue so far. :(

No, I fit/fitted the controls based on the master map I had, and the XML file I took off another computer - which was not Christoph's. My map does not have the controls in the same position as the printed map which Mikkel posted for Day 2 Blue. So, it was an older version. I apologize for any confusion this has caused.

I can blow Day 2 away, get new files from Christoph and start over. Or leave it the way it is and the adventure will continue.

Just leave it - they are only off by a tiny bit.

Yes, if those two controls and a few map changes are the worst of the changes, then I can live with that.

Some pictures I took in CO can be found here. They're mostly action shots. The landscape / still life shots got left out for now due to file size limits. Please let me know if you'd like to obtain any of the original hi-res files.